From February until April of this year, I explored Patagonia slowly, switching between Chile and Argentina and making hiking my main activity.
It was mind-blowing. I’ve never seen so many glaciers, waterfalls, and rainbows all in one place. It’s rugged and tough landscape that tested my limits but was so easy to fall in love with at the same time.
I did several treks, some were just one day and others spanned several days or even more than a week. With the right gear and knowledge, Patagonia can be enjoyable despite the elements and without many mishaps.
Here’s what I learned about trekking and camping in Patagonia:
1) You seriously do need hiking boots
I’ve trekked in Nepal, China, and all over the States in running shoes and thought they were great. The biggest difference is in Patagonia the trail is often super muddy, very rocky, or totally wet. Sometimes there isn’t really even a trail and you have to go by GPS.
There were SO many times when I was really glad to have waterproof shoes that I could just trek through the mud with and not care. They were one of the most important things to bring along. Here are the ones I recommend.
2) … and thick socks
The easiest way to avoid blisters is to reduce friction. That meant wearing thick socks and tying my boots very snugly when I trekked. When I did develop blisters, it really helped to keep my shoes tight and my socks thick to keep them from getting bigger or worse, tearing.
3) Bring Compeed
Compeed is so much better than Band Aids! These blister bandages are the best I’ve found, and they stay on for several days as well. Bring them with you as they may not be possible to replace everywhere in Patagonia (I actually never found them when I looked for them there).
4) Bring the right clothing with you
You can experience all kinds of different weather within the span of a few hours in Patagonia. I trekked through tons of rain, very heavy winds, and even snow over the two months that I was there. It can feel quite extreme at first, but in time you do get used to it and it even becomes part of the enjoyment of Patagonia.
However, it’s only fun if you have warm, waterproof clothing. Here’s my packing list for Patagonia to help!
5) Get a tent suited for Patagonian weather
A normal tent isn’t going to be a good choice in Patagonia, where winds can reach upwards of 100km/hour. That is some serious wind and the shape of the tent, plus strength of the tent poles, both matter a lot so that nothing breaks while you’re midway through a trek.
I used an MSR tent that was resilient and super light to carry at the same time. The shape is designed for wind and the rain jacket kept us dry, except for one occasion when the rain was so heavy that everyone woke up wet (it does happen).
6) For the love of God, do not buy your camping gear in Argentina
In the past I’ve bought a bunch of my camping equipment in the local country before the trek. It saved me a lot of money and the trouble of carrying the equipment around. This is not true at all in Argentina. Seriously do not buy any of your gear there!
I saw a North Face bag on sale for $300 that would have been $50 back home. Absolutely everything was overpriced in every single store I checked. Just bring it from home, seriously.
7) But honestly Chile isn’t that much better
There were a few things that I had to buy in Chile, like my sleeping bag and hiking poles. The price was closer to what I would pay back home, but I think I could have saved more by ordering stuff on Amazon and just bringing it with me.
8) Get lightweight cooking gear
Trekking with pots and pans is not a possibility for me. It’s just way too much weight and when you have to carry a week’s worth of food on your back, it’s already heavy so why make it worse?
I found this foldable pot that doubles as a pasta strainer and thought it was great. It’s super light and the quality is good. I used it for cooking everything I ate.
9) Hiking sticks are here to help you
Some people think hiking poles make them look dorky. I don’t care. I like the idea of protecting my knees and redistributing the weight. Plus, hiking poles saved me from face-planting into rocks more than once when wind gusts caught me by surprise.
It’s also good to have poles that aren’t super heavy, and as they get lighter, the cost usually goes up, so I opt for something in the middle.
10) Avoid those dumb sporks
When you’re looking at stuff to buy for your trek, you’ll see these half-fork, half-spoon with a knife at the end of one of the fork blades. It looks like a great idea. You can slice your food then pick it up with the fork to eat it!
False – it’s really hard not to cut your face on the knife part. Why was it designed that way, and how did I fall for it?
11) Life will be so much better with powder, not cans
It’s hard to resist easy things like canned tuna (btw, not for me, ew) and sauces. You have to pack those cans up and back out, though. That’s a lot of extra weight for not much gain.
My milk was powdered, as was all of the sauce and soup that I used for cooking. Some people even bring entire meals made out of powder that you just add water to. When water is as easy to get as it is in Patagonia, why not get things that are light until you add water?
12) Rain-proof your stuff
Rain covers tend to blow off or just be incredibly annoying when the wind catches them, making tons of noise right in your ear.
I didn’t bring a rain cover. I lined my bag with a bin liner and put my clothes, food, and electronics all in their own plastic bags as well. The backpack could get wet – no problem, and the stuff inside stayed dry.
13) Get a hat that won’t blow away easily
Go for a hat that keeps your head warm, your face covered from the sun, and your ears warm in the wind. This hat ticks all the boxes.
I kind of felt like a dweeb wearing it but then again, my face was protected and my ears were covered. Two birds, one stone, really.
14) It’s pretty nice to have a lightweight, warm sleeping bag
It gets seriously cold when you’re sleeping next to a glacier. I got snowed on as well in Torres del Paine, so having a warm sleeping bag that was also super lightweight was a life-saver. This is a non-negotiable item, along with a good tent, in order to enjoy the camping part of trekking in Patagonia. You’ll want it to be at least comfort level of 0-degrees Celsius.
15) It’s worth it to get a thick sleeping mat
I spent around $20 on a mat that was lightweight but also pretty useless on bad ground. I encountered a lot of roots and rock and think things would have been a lot better if I’d brought a thicker mattress. They do weigh more but only slightly and that’s something I would probably have been willing to carry.
I would probably use something like this in the future.
16) Most water on the trails is clean, but when it’s not, sterilize it with this
Most of the water is glacier water in Patagonia and it’s some of the cleanest on earth. However, especially in Torres del Paine, some campgrounds have had trouble with the increase in tourism and due to some campers doing things like washing in the streams or worse, some of the water has been making people sick.
I bring a steripen along on long treks. I never want to worry about the water or be without it, so I just sterilize it with a Steripen.
PLEASE: It’s up to everyone who hikes in Patagonia to work together to keep the water safe. Too often I saw idiots jumping into the glacial lakes, swimming in streams, or washing their bowls directly in the water. This water trickles down and effectively makes campers drink your bathing or dirty dish water. That’s not cool. Take water into a clean bowl and walk at least 100 paces away before washing, same goes for using the bush toilet. Please think twice before getting that swimming selfie – it’s incredibly selfish.
17) You can eat the Calafate berries
They have thorns and are not to be confused with the little red berries also growing on the ground, but Calfate berries, as long as you know what they look like, are nice snacks to have along the trails, especially on the Huemul Circuit.
18) Here’s a useful camping food list
Powder, carbs, nuts, oatmeal, chocolate, and fruits. Those are always in my trekking pack because they weigh the least and give me the most energy.
A day’s packing list:
- one portion oatmeal with milk powder and chocolate powder to taste
- 100 grams of dried fruit and dried nuts
- 1 small chocolate bar
- one portion pasta and powdered sauce plus slices of salami and/or cheese for dinner
For lunch, I pretty much always ate nuts and dried fruit. That way I could just keep going without having to stop. Dinners always had a treat in them of salami or a cheesy sauce (yes, a rare moment when I was willing to eat cheese) just to keep it nice and interesting. I also experimented with cous cous and powdered potatoes and think they’re both great options for hot dinners as well.
Since I was going to Patagonia with my friend Steve who has been there before and already knew that powder was the way to go, I was able to lighten my food load significantly by not bringing cans or liquid sauces. I’m so glad that we didn’t make the mistake of bringing all that weight!
Also, Steve has a pretty helpful guide specifically for Torres del Paine hiking here, with park entrance prices and campground info, that I’d suggest in conjunction with this post!
19) You’ll need this kind of cooking grill
It’s forbidden to have open fire in just about every national park in Patagonia, at least that I’m aware of.
A little camping stove that you attach to gas cans, available in the sporting goods stores in Patagonia, is best for trekking.
20) Bring a headlamp!
Because using your phone as a flashlight is going to get annoying really quickly. I like this waterproof one.
21) …and a portable charger
So that you can recharge your phone and cameras. This is the one that I use. (click here for more info on my camera gear).
22) …and mosquito repellant
Yep, they do exist sometimes in Patagonia.
23) …and sunscreen!
Make sure to always lather up when trekking in Patagonia, or anywhere for that matter. A sunburn when trekking is the worst! I like DeVita best.
24) Get ready for the best trip ever
Patagonia is seriously awesome to trek through. The landscape keeps getting more and more dramatic as you go through, providing constant surprises and little challenges. It’s one of the most rugged and lovely places I’ve traveled through, and if you’re planning to do the same, get ready for one of the best trips, ever, period.
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Maya says
I’ve been waiting for this..great post! I’m heading to Patagonia around Christmas (after I backpack Central America and the rest of South America) so wouldn’t buy a lot of things at home. Hopefully I can find some cheap gear in Peru or somewhere. Awesome tips, thanks again!
Kristin says
And if you can’t in Peru, opt for buying in Chile rather than Argentina. Have fun!
Patricia says
Hi Kristin, thank you so much for your post, it’s gonna be very useful on our trip to Patagonia in January. We are very excited, can’t wait for this!!!!
Kristin says
Yay glad to have been helpful! You’re going to love it
John @ Pretravels says
Great images and fantastic tips! If you’re not used with this type of terrains you might end up with the wrong gear and nothing spoils hike more than this.
Karo says
This is precious – perfect timing, it will help me in my preparations immensely. Thank you for this post and wonderful photos 🙂
eM says
For me Patagonia seems so far away … But who knows, maybe someday! 🙂
Mishelle says
Great post! I have this destination on my bucket list. Hope I go there one time.
Nicole says
I am so happy that I friend of mine ran across this article!!! I am gearing up for a 5 week trek the middle of Oct. and although I have read literally everything, it’s nice to have a first hand account!!! How easy is it to find the powered foods/dehydrated things in towns? This is hands down my biggest concern! I am an avid hiker and love to do ziplock cooking but I for the life of me can not find any info on actual food purchases while I am there!!!
Thank you so much!!!
Kristin says
You won’t easily find those whole dehydrated meals that some people bring. I don’t find that they taste all that great and I prefer just having real food like pasta with a powdered sauce. I had no problems getting powdered milk, dried fruit, powdered chocolate milk (essential), and soups. I went into more detail on my trekking food in this article: https://www.bemytravelmuse.com/torres-del-paine-circuit/
Have fun!
Crystal says
I’ve heard from a few people that it’s best to rent gear outside of TDP rather than buying at home – honestly not sure I’ll use it again (outside hiking boots). Do you know anyone who has used rented gear – tents, sleeping bag, mats, stove – and if they found it adequate for the conditions?
Marijke says
Hi Kristin,
Thanks for the useful post. I’ll be backpacking through South-America from March until June and Patagonia is definitely on my list! What was your itineray in & how did you travelled to Patagonia?
thanks!
Marijke
Kristin says
This should help: https://www.bemytravelmuse.com/patagonia-itinerary/
You can also check out these two guides with interactive maps. I started in the north and moved south, switching regularly between Chile and Argentina https://www.bemytravelmuse.com/argentina-guides/ and https://www.bemytravelmuse.com/chile-guides/
Georgia Tucker says
Hi, this is really helpful. Roughly how much did you spend? How much were camp sites per night for a 2 man tent roughly?
Thanks,
Georgia
Kristin says
Budget anywhere from $5-$20, as it can really vary depending on the campsite’s location and popularity
Genevieve says
Hi Kristin this is really beautiful!!
How did you guys keep up with the good path when Steve say there was no trail? And how did you get the gps on the phone if there is no good SIM card?
Thank you! this looks incredible!
Genevieve
Kristin says
We downloaded maps.me for offline maps and plotted the points ahead of time. That’s how we figured out the trail 🙂
kimberly says
hello Kristin,
thank you so much for this info.. I see in one pic you are wearing a tank top.. what time of year was this.. I’m going back and forth on clothing for some pieces.. we will be going from santiago , hiking through panes del torres , end of february into early march for 2 weeks.
Ive got a couple questions …
did you get rocks in your shoes..
did you need small gators,
did you wear darn tough socks? and were they to the calve but not over?
which boots did you go with, were they gortex?
did you need shake and warms,
did you bring extra hike shoe
what did you wear in the refugio? we won’t be camping
some males have a different vision of what to bring..
i need a womens perspective..
what type of sport bra did you feel worked
what type of long johns did you wear.. and what did you wear on your feet in the refugio if you stayed in any..
Kristin says
Hey Kimberly
– I was there February to late March. I suggest layers (more here about what to pack: https://www.bemytravelmuse.com/womens-patagonia-packing-list/)
– No but I had boots on that were well-sealed and waterproof so that kept them out. They’re made for trekking in those conditions
– Sorry, what are small gators? ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
– Yes wear thick socks and mine were mid-calf
– Boots are linked in the packing list
– It’s not cold enough to need hand warmers
– No just brought one pair
– You can wear what you wear hiking in the refugio. It’ll be cold!
– you can bring flip flops for the refugio and wear them with socks. Give your feet a break from the hiking boots. Sports bra-wise just wear what you’d wear to the gym!
GG says
Gators are actually gaiters and are best described as: “Adjustable elastic band for convenient and firm bundling, front opening Velcro design for easier putting on and taking off, firm hook fasten to shoelace and durable strap to keep the gaiters from coming loose
FUNCTION: To protect your boots and trousers from rain, water and mud. Pair there gaiters with hiking boots or ski boots to keep rocks, dirt and snow from getting into your footwear
OCCASION :This gaiters good for skiing, backpacking, hiking, camping, fishing, and other outdoor adventures” So essentially when wearing boots these are fabric covers that further protect any water, dirt or snow to get into your boots. They look a little like shin protection when you play hockey or other similar sports.
Aria Srinivasan says
I’m only going for a week to Patagonia.. would you still recommend the hiking boots?
Kristin says
If you want to hike, they’d be incredibly helpful. It’s super rocky and often wet terrain.
Taylor says
Where can I find your “dorky” hat; I’ve been searching everywhere! It seems so practical!
Kristin says
I can’t find it either! I bought it in a rural area of China years ago.
Connie says
Hi! Sorry to ask something trip-specific, but I’m having trouble finding this anywhere. I’m going to do the W trek next week and was originally planning on checking my backpack with the tent.
But I’m paranoid about it getting lost with 3 transfers, so I figure if I bring everything except the stakes, I can take everything as a carry-on. But are there places to purchase decent stakes in Puerto Natales upon arrival? I see there are a lot of places to rent equipment, but I wasn’t sure if I would be able to only purchase stakes.
Thanks in advance!
Kristin says
Hey Connie, to be honest I have no idea. I’d email erratic rock and ask what they suggest!
Nancy says
Hiya, we booked our tickets to arrive in Chile in January, thinking this would give us plenty of time to book campsites for Torres Del Paine but they all seem to be booked up already?! A year ahead? Does this mean we can’t visit the park..? Any advice so welcome, this is quite shocking… 🙁
Joanna says
I love your blog!! I was wondering about the photos you take..how do you take the photos of yourself since you’re a solo traveler?
Kristin says
Selfies! I’ve written about how here: https://www.bemytravelmuse.com/how-to-take-travel-selfies/
vikram says
rofl at the comment on snickers ! but these are pretty awesome tips. How much Spanish would i need to know though ? also i love climbing, so any recommendations on decent bouldering not too far off the hiking trails ? any pointers would be like manna from the heavens .. all the best for your future adventures
Kristin says
My Spanish is no bueno. I only know what I picked up growing up in California, which is restaurant Spanish. It would really help to know some as you won’t encounter a lot of locals in Patagonia who speak English, but I survived.
I did some bouldering in Bariloche in the north of Patagonia: https://www.bemytravelmuse.com/things-to-do-in-bariloche/
Jyotsna says
Hey!
Amazing post! The hat you mentioned which serves as a beanie as well as a sun protector looks great, where did you get that from? Searched all over but could not find it.
Kristin says
China like soooo long ago but putting a beanie over a baseball cap works similarly well
Teresa says
I’ve just started planning a trip to Patagonia for around a month, what are your thoughts on doing a month long trekking trip solo as a female? Some say go for it and some say its a big no no. I’m aware common sense goes a long way if you’re travelling solo but is it something you’d recommend on a trekking tip in Patagonia?
Love the blog by the way – so much seriously helpful info!
Kristin says
I think you’ll meet lots of people. You’ll meet people in town who will want to go with you, you’ll meet people on the trail, and you’ll meet locals too. I love solo traveling so that’s my feelings towards it!
Sam says
Looks so exciting! I am planning a trip for March 2018. I love your “dorky hat,” the white one that is a headband with a visor. What brand is it? I want one!!!!
Kristin says
So many people have asked and I wish I could find one online! I bought it in a tiny town in China. However now I put a thin neckwarmer over my rainbow had and it works similarly well 🙂
Laura says
Thank you so much for posting! I’m hoping to plan my trip to Patagonia for a departure in the next 6 months – I’m very active and an avid hiker, but will be likely going solo. Do you have a guide you’d recommend? Thank you,
Kristin says
I didn’t use any guides, but for most of these hikes you can find people to hike with in town, or even along the trail.
P. Sanchez says
I recently came across your article on trekking in Patagonia. I enjoyed reading your guide and found it quite helpful, up to where you condemned people and called them idiots for wanting to swim in the lakes/rivers. Discarding dirty/soapy water into a river is one thing (I’m a marine biologist/coastal ecologist so I understand and respect nature), but jumping in for a swim? No, I would not jump into a 2 metre wide stream for a swim at a campsite where people will be collecting water further down, but no amount of dirty stares and silent (or even verbal) judgement will stop me from having a swim in a lake/larger river.
Maybe you should consider editing that part out of your guide. It’s definitely on my mind to take a swim there, and the only thing that would stop me is if CONAF or a carabinero told me its forbidden to do so (haven’t found anything of the sort). If someone is a germophobe, then that’s on them to decide if they want to drink the water with or without disinfecting it, but don’t ruin other peoples experience just because you don’t agree with their idea of fun.
There’s a saying that goes “dilution is the solution to pollution”, and I can guarantee you dirtier things have been in your mouth (with or without you being aware of it) than a mouthful of water collected from a lake where someone has bathed in.
Kristin says
Thanks for weighing in. The water in Patagonia is the cleanest on earth. That glacial water is 10k years old and when you jump in right at the source, it makes everyone also at that lake need to drink that water too. I just didn’t think it was cool to wash off 8-days of sweat into water people are drinking. It was also freezing cold and a hypothermia risk, so I wasn’t tempted.
If everyone takes the attitude that it’s going to get diluted, then nobody can drink the water without filtering it first. It already happened in Torres del Paine at one of the more popular trails, and it’s the water coming right down very close to the source. Sad.
It’s just about respecting what we have so that everyone can enjoy it. When we all take the attitude of one little thing that I do will not affect the rest, or it’ll just get diluted, it adds up, and this is why we can’t have nice things.
It’s important to let people know, who may not have realized, the importance of treating the water as sacred and clean. This post has potentially informed people who might not have known what is OK and what isn’t when camping. My writing addresses keeping all of the water clean and respecting it everywhere without splitting hairs about where is OK and where isn’t, and also it’s my site, so I’ll write what I want 🙂
GG says
“Dilution is a solution to pollution” is an illusion, this is a mistaken notion on all counts, please don’t use that :). A drinkable water body can be tainted by pollution hundreds of miles away. If it is a pristine area, the only considerate thing to do is leave it that way. There are SO many places in the world where you can dive in and have a blast, under waterfalls, in deep blue pools etc. There are SO few places that are pristine. As a scientist who works in the environmental field, I think it is awesome that Kristin provides these guides that challenge yourself when traveling while using common sense, preparation, and consideration of the places you visit. Preparation is the key. You never know what you might encounter so at least be prepared for the expected so you have that down to concentrate on anything else and enjoy yourself to the fullest. Being a good guest in the countries your visit is paramount in so many ways. I think it is great that Kristin mentions safety including sunscreen, repellent (if there’s water, there’s mosquitoes), proper footwear/gear and so on. I trust her more than most and when traveling will bring these guides with me to make sure I enjoy myself, am safe, and respect the places I go. Before her I wouldn’t visit many places in the world out of fear of exploiting them. She taught me you can enjoy the world and if you visit a place, you give back (to the locals) as much as you take. Thanks BTW for this post, it is very thorough with great advice and every link works even 2 years later.
P. Sanchez says
Ok a few things I agree with. I personally wouldn’t wash my 8-days clothes directly in the water, but I wouldn’t lose my shit if I saw someone else doing it (unless they were adding products to it).
As for 10k year old water and hypothermia… I think we’re picturing different lakes. The water at Torres del Paine doesn’t seem like it has good drainage (at least in front of Los Cuernos) so I can see how contaminants might build up there with bad flow (especially with the increasing number of visitors).
As for the hyporthermia, so long as you have dry clothes to warm you up once you get out (and it isn’t too windy) it isn’t really that dangerous. Just don’t stay in too long…
Sure, the mentality of “it’s only me, it wont make a difference” is usually wrong and common among people that justify littering, since it adds up, but in the scenario I’m picturing, the lakes/rivers will have good water flow and and oil/skin/fecal matter that comes off your body will just wash away and be broken down. Lotion, insect repellant etc. wont, so yes, one should rinse before jumping in. We CAN have nice things if we are smart about it.
It isn’t necessarily about splitting hairs, but being informed and unbiased. Let people know that if they absolutely must jump in, to take these precautions (rinse before as you would before jumping into a swimming pool, do not stay in too long, do not jump in if the stream is small and people nearby e.g. at camping grounds use it for drinking water).
That being said, I appreciate tourists respecting the land, and it goes without saying; if I see a sign saying “no swimming” I will listen to it. Especially if it is by CONAF.
Kristin says
Where are you supposed to rinse off the lotion and insect repellant? There aren’t showers nearby, or signs, or a bunch of rangers. Except for the really popular hikes, these are not like the national parks in North America. This is usually raw, unadulterated nature 🙂
I think once you get there you might understand where I’m coming from. I’m done arguing about this now 🙂
Mick says
You just got me super excited planning my trip to Patagonia! So many useful info on here!!!
Thanks for sharing!
Mick
Melissa says
Hey Kristin! Thanks for the tips. I was curious if I need hiking pants for the trip (hiking the W in December) but saw that you wore tights which I prefer. How thick should they be – any suggestions where I could get some hard wearing ones? Thanks!
Kristin says
I like LuLulemon. I always wear leggings when I hike. I just like them better! If you’re cold wear two – just make sure they’re roomy or you’ll constantly have to be pulling them up. I’ve had that happen before, it’s annoying!
Jennifer Duke says
Thanks for the tips. I’m going on a Patagonia tour and there are some hikes planned. I sincerely thought my regular tennis shoes would cut it. Glad I read this first. Also, even though I’m not camping, I might pack some of those suggested food items to keep with me so I don’t separate from my group. Great article!
Kristin says
I would get boots! And yes snacks are always good to have along 🙂
Lacey says
Thanks for this great post! What would you recommend for a coat/jacket and gloves? Going in March to the Chile side for a few days, but not camping.
Kristin says
I’ve got a packing list here, should help 🙂 https://www.bemytravelmuse.com/womens-patagonia-packing-list/
Sabrina says
Where did you get that hat? Seems warm and functional and at the same time looks nice!
Kristin says
China in a tiny little town. I have tried in vain to find it online since you’re about the 40th person to ask on here but haven’t been successful 🙁
Brianna says
Band-Aid Hydro Seal Blister are amazing!!! They don’t sell Compeed in the US anymore 🙁
Kristin says
Bummer! Not even on amazon?
James says
Hi Kristen.
Great post, super helpful!
I’m in the start of planning my trip for the O. Firstly booking the campsites but do I need to pre book a permit to gain entry to the park? So if I was starting say on the 10th and finishing on the 18th would I pre book this permit for this amount of time?
Just a little concerned with fitting the camp sites within selected dates and then wondering if I need the permit to cover the trip?
Kristin says
You will need a permit for the park but I think you can apply for that in person.
Pauline says
Hi Kristin! I’m very grateful for your guide as I’ve never done any multi day hike, especially not in the kind of harsh weather that can be encountered in Patagonia! With what kind of backpack did you travel (especially for the treks at e.g. Torres del Paine)? Is a 50L enough or will I need to upgrade to a bigger one?
Thank you in advance!
Pauline
Kristin says
I had a 75L and used every inch of it for the O. You could make a 50 work for more like a 5-day or shorter, though!
Paul says
Thanks for the nice detailed guide. I have a couple of questions, because I am planing in the beginning of 2020 to travel around the world with just a carry on. Since Patagonia is my 1st stop, is there an outfit that I can rent the camping gear? Also do you book your accommodation in advance?
Thanks
Kristin says
Yes you can rent and for Torres del Paine yes book ahead, the other hikes don’t have campsites in the same sense. I just showed up personally.